Glacier Park

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Glacier Park

A while back there was some question about our status being able to kite in St. Mary's or Sherburne inside GNP. Has anyone heard any final resolution on that? With the heat building on the plains and moderate westerly flows this weekend I'm thinking it may be going off but don't want to waste the gas & efforts if I'm going to get chased off. Anyone else thinking to head there over the 4th weekend?

I don't think we will know until we try...

Gary was saying that the guy misinterpretted the rules of the park. Essentially, paragliding behind a boat is illegal. In my opinion it shouldn't be illegal to get pulled behind the kite because it is comparable to a boat pulling a wake boarder or water skier. I don't think the guy understood the difference and probably didn't want to advertise the area for that specific sport. We may have to educate them why we think that kiting should be allowed. It is legal to kitesurf in other National Parks but typically they require a pfd so I think we could argue our point and I would recommend a pfd. Gary has a copy of the bylaw that I am talking about. If you go you should take a copy so you can argue our point to the Rangers.
Brian

maybe Padre Island & Cape

maybe Padre Island & Cape Hatteras Nat'l Seashores could be used as examples of where itis allowed. Gary is wandering off somewhere so isn't available to get a copy from.

I found it in my email.

This is 3.12a from appendix J that was written this year...
SECTION 3.12 MAY I USE A VESSEL TO TOW A PERSON FOR WATER SKIING OR
OTHER SIMILAR ACTIVITIES?
(a) The towing by vessels of persons with or without skis, on surfboards, sleds, tubes, excluding parasails,is permitted only on Lake McDonald and St. Mary Lake.
This is the copy of what the super sent thekiteboarder mag...
Section 3.12(b) states that "towing a person using a parasail, hang-glider or other airborne device may be allowed only in accordance with a permit issued by the superintendent under section 1.6 of this chapter"
These are both refering to towing someone WITH A BOAT (vessel) who is flying with an "airborne device" like a parasail...not being towed by an airborne device. We're fine unless we we become the vessel and tow somebody behind us on a parasail...which sounds kind of fun.
I think it is probably a go. Just be super friendly with the Rangers if they bug you.

That's my post from when we

That's my post from when we talked about this a while back...
Also I heard the super that was being a dick is retired or fired or transfered or something. Might be worth googling the park regs again and see if there's a new ammendum or whatever.

I'm hoping it'll be on Thurs

I'm hoping it'll be on Thurs & I'll find out ... also seems like the J-hole crew was kiting Yellowstone lake last summer- got questioned - & it was resolved it was OK in the end

Lake Mohave is a NP and I kited there three weeks ago with no

issues what so ever. I do think that mostly they want us to be safe and not cause any kind of bad PR. So clean up after yourselves and ride the heck out of it. Dave if you see a grey camoflauge helmet near the launch area let me know. I lost one last year

....and don't park on the

....and don't park on the road! Park behind the visitor's center.

I second that from...

Bob. Drop your stuff off and then go park behind the visitors center. I wish I could head up that way myself. Looks like there should be a little west push up that way!! Good luck if you head out and keep us posted.

I don't even like doing that.

I don't even like doing that. Parking where you're not supposed to and leaving stuff unattended on the side is the highway in bear country will surely attract unwanted attention from ranger rick...

...tomorrow might be good.

Might head over tomorrow. Maybe camp too as Friday looks good too.

As many have probably heard -

As many have probably heard - we have been shut down. The superintendent has decided that, "as of now kiting is not permitted inside the park boundary". Park Rangers are instructed to educate us on the ruling and ask us not to kite any longer with citation being the result of a 2nd offense. If we wish to be able to regain access to Glacier Park I think it may be possible to present the current(interim) superintendent and the incoming superintendent that we can kite safely without endangering other people & wildlife & the ecosystem & ourselves by presenting the following ideas:
1. We don't jump high enough or for long enough for the boosts we do to be considered flight as they consider base jumping or parasailing or paragliding.
2. If we were in the middle of even a large floaty boost and a catastrophic equipment failure happened it wouldn't likely result in injury or death. I think this is a key difference we need to stress in our sport vs. the 3 listed above.
3. We need to present the reasons this is not a destination kite location nor is it likely to become one. I think they don't understand the reasons for when it works so well in Glacier & the timing of why & when we come up there. I think they are worried it could become a crowded destination spot like the gorge with all the inherent dangers and problems so many people would create.
4. I think they need to understand how small in numbers we are here and respectful to their authority and the focus and purpose of the Park itself.

We need to sort out a concerted presentation and find the proper channel to the superintendent to make our case effectively. Please post your ideas on the best way to proceed and other presentation points we need to make. From the conversation I had with the ranger I spoke to - it seems we have a chance to get a ruling in our favor - we just need to do it right.
4.

I sent a letter via email and snail mail to the Super.....

Lets see what happens. I included most of the points on this forum and a few others. If you would like to read the letter I will be happy to send it to you. I want to warn everyone that we should try to stay respectful of the no kiting for now. we don't want to piss of the park service by poaching the lake and as dave indicated we have a chance to get a ruling in our favor so lets do it the right way.

I contacted the Superintendant's office today

They will be getting back to me this week. I should be able to talk directly with the Super about our situation. I will keep you all posted.

Brian whats the status of

Brian whats the status of Glacier?

We've got some people on another forum that don't know whats going on. I asked them to take the thread down.

http://www.nwkite.com/forums/post-183477.html#183477

Status Update: For Glacier

I am meeting with the Chief Ranger Mr. Mark Foust on Friday Morning to discuss the subject. We will not hear anything back until he is able to talk with the new Superintendent, Mr. Mow. Mr. Mow starts at the end of August. I would not expect any earth shattering news until possibly early this fall. I will be willing to guess that this is not high on the list of things for Mr. Mow when he starts. I will try to convince Mr. Foust that we would really appreciate it if he made it a priority for us. I will update after talking with Mr. Foust.

Thanks Brian for all your right effort...

I am very grateful for the tactful manner in which you are addressing the park service in regards to Saint Mary’s Lake. It is, as Dave and many others have expressed, a very special place to say the least. A Blackfoot friend once told me his people say there is a great sea monster in that lake and its breath is the wind…a little bit of a tangent but none the less; that thermal, that drainage, that lake creature, that lake, that sacred place has been further elevated by your diplomatic attitude. I think it is big of you, the way you are seeking and meeting with park representatives. Hopefully everything will be okay...I am very happy and publicly grateful for your good natured efforts. Thank you Brian!

Basically, I will have to meet with the new Super to officially

get any answer. It was nice to meet with the Ranger this weekend but none of them want to overstep their bounds and say yes or no until I or they can talk directly with the new Superintendent. I have a request to meet with him when he is finally at Glacier. The presentation to the Ranger was helpful as he did provide some helpful discussion from the parks point of view that he believes the Superintendent will take into consideration during the discussion and in his final decision. Again unfortunately that means as of now we are still discouraged from kiting and probably won't have a resolution until next year. I would again reiterate the importance of us trying to stay the course if you will and don't poach the park. At this time it has been brought to the highest level of the parks supervision. But as you all can imagine this isn't any of their top priorities. We will have to be patient and respect the time and process to work within the government bureaucracy. On a positive note the Ranger was very interested in my demonstration and how the basics of kiteboarding work. He also did not indicate that he wouldn't specifically disallow kiteboaring based on my discussion.

easy for you to say! You dont

easy for you to say! You dont live 70 miles away. Its gonna rip Fri Sat Sun....again! I'm ready to poach the hell out of that place....

Bob thats your perogative. I can't keep you from kiting there..

nor can the park rangers really stop you. If you are gonna do it atleast invite the cavalry so that they all get another shot at riding. All I can do is recommend the most diplomatic method for gaining access back, that will not piss off park management. Please let me know if you do go kiting and the out come. If you trouble or ticketed its your fight to fight from here on out. You won't prove anything to them by doing it. They will just think we have no respect for rules. Good luck.

Should go off on Duck lake

Should go off on Duck lake this weekend too. Far east end for launching.

Just don't get mauled by the Grizzly Bears....

I think they had a bear attack this year at Duck Lake. I think the lady was walking her dog and the dog probably brought the bear back to her. Luckily they don't swim as well as we kite!!

Hey Dave, us that private

Hey Dave, is that private property on the east end. I've looked at that and it looks like a great spot. 

I think it is Blackfeet Reservation but is not....

specifically owned by anyone. There is some private land around Duck Lake. See
http://apps.msl.mt.gov/Geographic_Information/Maps/Land_Ownership/LandOw...

There is a public use map and a land owner map. Looking at private land owner that area for Duck Lake the property falls into the Blackfeet Indian Reservation but there is no specific land owner listed. You would want to have your Blackfeet Indian Reservation Conservation card.

I won't kite there. I wish

I won't kite there. I wish they would let us continue to ride there until they they officially disallow it.

Don't we all. Don't we all!!!

I hear what you are saying! Doesn't make sense that we have been doing it for the better part of 5 years and now boom. No.

It's not exactly like "boom

It's not exactly like "boom no!"

Duck Lake was solid 3 days.

Duck Lake was solid 3 days. 1 of the most spectacular sunsets Fri night i've ever seen. not a bad alternative.

Glad to hear you got some. We

Glad to hear you got some. We have a good forecast for tomorrow. 

Dave where specifically are you launching

at duck lake?

We camped & launched from the

We camped & launched from the NE corner. 2 track trail leading around the east end past all the houses through 1 gate then it leads to the NE end just past the long gravel point. Make sure you wear booties the rocks are biggish & sharp. Not a beginner friendly launch. We need about 3 loads of sand or pea gravel there & it could be as perfect as it gets for water kiting in MT. I'm not sure what our status is for it being private land or Res. ownership or whether someone will ever hassle us there. There were no "No Trespassing" signs & the area is/has been camped in by others.

Make sure you have a

Make sure you have a Reservation Conservation Permit if you go there. It's the least we can do to keep a really nice spot in good standing with the folks that could hassle us.

Yes make sure you have that...

I think you can get them right in Browing. Dave do you know where in Browing you can pick one up?

I got mine at Scheels in Gt

I got mine at Scheels in Gt Falls. I'm pretty sure they have them at the lumber/hardware store in Cut Bank, I've heard the IGA store in Browning has them but I'm not sure. There may even be a place in St. Marys at that grocery store next to the pie place maybe? The C-store in Valier does NOT have them any more.

All you need is the conservation permit $10. The sportsman or watercraft permits are not necessary.

UPDATE for Glacier NP

I received a letter from the Superintendant of Glacier NP today. His letter to me basically says that they are going to consider kiteboarding as a permitted activity but they have to look at their policies and laws closer to make an informed decision. First they want to better understand the sport and then apply that to their current laws, values, and standards. Finally, the superintendent will make a decision based on having all the information possible.

I think this is a good step for our future of kiting in the park. I will schedule a meeting with him in the next month or two to discuss the sport and our options. I will also put a plan together for where we as kiters would like to have access. Likely if access is allowed we will have to get a permit prior to going out and a life jacket will be required. If anyone wants to read the response from Glacier to me I am happy to share it. Just email me or PM me. li terski 21@ hotmail dot com
Brian

Excellent work Brian. St Mary

Excellent work Brian. St Mary's is as magical as lake floras in Oregon. Would love to hit it again in the future.

I have a meeting scheduled for Feb 19th with....

Superintendant Mow. I will know more then!!!

I met with the Superintendent.....

Deputy Superintendent, Head Ranger, and two other rangers yesterday regarding kiteboarding in Glacier. The only way it will be allowed in the park is thru a permitting type of process. As a group we misinterpretted a Vessel in the Code of Federal Regulations. A vessel applies to any contrivance moving accross the water to power a person. That could be a boat, sail, or a kite and board combination.

That being said there is room in the regulations to permit activities like kiteboarding. The presentation went very well and I believe they are considering a permiting process for this next summer. There are some loose ends and research that the Superintendents office wants to look at before making a final decision. I am hoping we will have some indication of that decision by the end of March as discussed yesterday.

I can also tell you that if we get the sport permitted, PFDs and Helmets will be become mandatory for kiting there. We will also have to obey the parking regulations. Only Lake MacDonald and Saint Mary Lake will be allowed to have partipants of the sport. Sherburn is probably a no go based on similar activities being present on Saint Mary that are not present on Sherburn. Also we will need to self police ourselves to ensure that we are not carrying any invasive aquatic critters between lakes. This is something we should be doing anyways with a quick rinse and drying of our gear. Feel free to give me a call if you want more info about the presentation but that is the basics of our conversations to this point.

Thanks again for staying off the lake last summer. The Interim Acting Superindentent who is now the Deputy Superintendent was very pleased that we were patient enough to go through the process in the right way and did not press the issue.

As a final thought my feelings at this point are more positive towards us being allowed back into the park but with some minor changes and restrictions to areas and possibly times of year due to some eagle activity plans during the spring months. I stressed our desire to use the lake during the summer months when we don't have wind a lot of other locations.

Brian
four 06 43 one .....three two 60 if you want to talk to me.

Not that it matters as we're

Not that it matters as we're dealing with a dictatorship, but I still insist that the park service are the ones misinterpreting the regs. We're a vessel, but vessels are fine...just no towing of hang gliders or parasails with said vessel.

Nice work Brian! Everybody really appreciates all the hard work you're putting into this. Hope we get to kite there again someday. Sucks that we're kicked off Sherburn...biggest, smoothest swell in the state when it's on.

I asked for Sherburn but that my initial feeling is that....

They have no other activities to warrant us using that area. They were also very concerned about the high level of Grizzly activity at that lake. If we only get one then I think Saint Mary is our best bet.

UPDATE: Glacier Park Kiteboarding

I just got off the phone with one of the rangers. We are trying to figure out a couple of issues with our launch site most importantly is that it doesn't interfere with the most important archeological site in the park. After talking with him and sending them a map of our current location he doesn't think it does interfere. We are talking through a couple other minor issues and bouncing around ideas for getting into that spot to keep other folks from wanting to cross the prairie thereby creating a well used path. They are not looking for this area to be an access spot except for us. The other issue is keeping the access and numbers of kiters at a time as low key as possible. We also don't want to encourage beginner kiters to come use the spot. This should be considered a self sufficient advance kiting area where self landing, launching, rescue and upwind skills are necessary. As of right now I am going to work with the ranger to come up with something that I think works for all of us but will keep all of you as involved as possible.

There will be one final look at the whole plan by the Superintendent after the ranger makes his recommendations. I really do feel the superintendent is thinking about letting us do a trial run this summer with a self regulated permitting process. For the time being please stay off the lake. I hope to have this resolved by late May or early June at the latest just in time for prime season. I will probably be doing a site visit on the 17 or 18 to work with the ranger directly.

Again if any of you are planning on heading that way please respect the no riding this for a couple more weeks. I know we have impressed the park officials by going about this the right way. Again thanks for everyones cooperation, consideration, and patience. I will update in a few weeks when we know more.

Regards,
Brian

UPDATE: Glacier Park Kiteboarding

I just got off the phone with one of the rangers. We are trying to figure out a couple of issues with our launch site most importantly is that it doesn't interfere with the most important archeological site in the park. After talking with him and sending them a map of our current location he doesn't think it does interfere. We are talking through a couple other minor issues and bouncing around ideas for getting into that spot to keep other folks from wanting to cross the prairie thereby creating a well used path. They are not looking for this area to be an access spot except for us. The other issue is keeping the access and numbers of kiters at a time as low key as possible. We also don't want to encourage beginner kiters to come use the spot. This should be considered a self sufficient advance kiting area where self landing, launching, rescue and upwind skills are necessary. As of right now I am going to work with the ranger to come up with something that I think works for all of us but will keep all of you as involved as possible.

There will be one final look at the whole plan by the Superintendent after the ranger makes his recommendations. I really do feel the superintendent is thinking about letting us do a trial run this summer with a self regulated permitting process. For the time being please stay off the lake. I hope to have this resolved by late May or early June at the latest just in time for prime season. I will probably be doing a site visit on the 17 or 18 to work with the ranger directly.

Again if any of you are planning on heading that way please respect the no riding this for a couple more weeks. I know we have impressed the park officials by going about this the right way. Again thanks for everyones cooperation, consideration, and patience. I will update in a few weeks when we know more.

Regards,
Brian

Thanks and anything else we can do to help?

Brian - thanks for your efforts on this. Is there anything else we can do to help this process (besides not kiting)? Letters, emails, etc. to show support for the process?

Nope nothing at this point....

I have a good feeling though. I was told that they are working on final wording for a permit. Then it will go to the Super for final approval. I have a request in to get updated this week since the its getting closer to that time that we want to use that area.
Thanks for asking though and I like your picture. Nice Airush set-up.

Sounds good...

headed over to St. Mary this weekend and it will kill me if it's going off. Hopefully Duck or Mission would work though. We'll see. Forecast isn't calling for much past Thursday of this week.

I love the Lithium. From warmer days on a trip this past winter to Punta de' Mita, Mexico.

For now everybody be patient.....

I got a reply from the Superindentants Assistant and stuff is still in the works. Right now they just have to get the i's dotted and the t's crossed before they will give it a final blessing. Its a long process but her feelings talking to other other park rangers who are taking care of the leg work is that it shouldn't be that much longer. For the good of all of us I will repeat myself and remind you all to stay off of the lake. THe last thing we need at this moment is someone to poach the lake and fuck it all up.

Thanks again guys for being respectful. The park appreciates it and it helps me prove that we are not a bunch of assholes and can follow the rules.

Got It.

Heading over to camp, not poach. If the opportunity arises to kite it would be on mission or duck. Thanks again.

Got It.

Heading over to camp, not poach. If the opportunity arises to kite it would be on mission or duck. Thanks again.

The proposal for kiteboaring is in....

what they call Compliance. This is the final check before the review of the Superintendant. Basically, everything has to be in order before the Superintendant will do his final review and make a decision. I just can't get a timeline out of them as to when Compliance might get accomplished to that the Super can make a decision. The folks I am directly working with seem to think it will be soon. Keep being patient please. Thanks again and I will update if I hear anything else

Met the Superintendent Last Week

Brian - just happened to be at a public meeting last week in Whitefish and was introducted to Jeff. We had a chance to talk for a few minutes and I asked him about the permitting for kiteboarding. I put in a plug in for it being a small and compliant group. He said thanks and that they are working on it - that permitting is the only way they can allow this activity from their interpetation (as i'm sure you know). He was positive about it and it sounds like things are moving forward.

Another test from Chris

Just a test from Chris

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